Java Open-Sourced Under GPL; Sun Shines Brighter

Yes, it's official. News is already starting to pop up around the net about Java's open-sourcing and especially about the choice of license: GPLv2. I must admit my jaw dropped when I first heard about this a couple weeks ago, and it was a hard secret to sit on. Not only is it open source...it's open source using the most vigorously open license out there.

I think the GPL is a great choice for Java. Not only will it be fully compatible with the vast range of GPLed software, but any folks hoping to release their own versions will be compelled to make their changes available as source. Say what you like about the GPL and its "virulence" or its "tainting", but for an open development platform about to explode in the open-source world, it's hard to say what license would be a better choice.

I'm proud to be at Sun surrounded by thought-leaders smart enough to see this is the right thing to do. Sun is BACK, baby!

Tune in for Jonathan Schwartz's and Rich Green's webcast at 9:30PT to get all the details about what's being opened up when.

McGovern Likes JRuby

I'm not entirely sure how to feel about this one. Apparently James McGovern believes that "the Ruby community at large should drop their current approach and embrace the JRuby stuff." He notes that Jeff Sutherland recommended the same thing for Smalltalk years ago, to save it from being left behind.

Now I haven't generally agreed with James McGovern in the past. His hilarious post about how "Ruby isn't ready for the enterprise" was pretty ill-informed, though perhaps well-meaning. My primary issue with that post was that there's nothing about Ruby--the language, libraries and apps--that would prevent it from being perfectly suited to enterprise development. There are issues with the implementation, certainly, but I don't believe that Ruby necessarily has to equate with the C version. Enter JRuby...

JRuby is Ruby. It looks like Ruby, it acts like Ruby, it walks like a Ruby and talks like a Ruby. We aim for it to run Ruby apps and libraries; we hope for it to be as close to 100% compatible as possible. The fact that some of it is written in Java or that it runs on the VM-formerly-known-as-Java is wholely irrelevant; JRuby is Ruby.

I think it's been pretty well proven that the Java VM is well-suited for enterprise development. The majority of enterprise apps out there today are written for or being written for the JVM, and Sun's had whole teams of folks making the JVM run as well as possible for exactly those scenarios. There's no doubt about the JVM's enterprise capability.

So it should follow that Ruby on the JVM, in the form of JRuby, would inherit much of that enterprise-readiness. Does that mean McGovern is right? Should the Ruby community abandon YARV and Ruby 2.0 and the C impl for greener pastures (or in the case of threading, less green pastures)?

No. To do such a thing would be absurd. And there's a simple reason for this: Not everyone wants to run a full-featured VM.

Ruby in its current form has served its users well. It's an outstanding administrative language, great for text processing, network tickling, application scripting. It's even proven itself for small to medium-sized web applications using numerous frameworks, from Camping to Rails. Even more, it has shown its capability for targeted "enterprisey" tasks, like tying together services or generating code and components to be consumed by other systems. Ruby has done its job admirably, and that job isn't going anywhere.

I will fully admit that JRuby in its current form is probably not ideal for heavy command-line use. The minimal runtime that the C implementation starts up is a better fit for quick hit scripts, there's no doubt about that. And for many web deployment scenarios, the C implementation works suitably well, fulfilling its responsibilities without issue. Where McGovern is right is that JRuby is better suited to much larger applications, where scaling across multiple CPUs or multiple machines is an absolute necessity; where resources are quickly consumed by thousands of independent processes; where monitoring, management, and deployment needs can't be addressed by current pure Ruby or C-based options. In short, JRuby fills the medium to large application realm where Ruby has trouble venturing.

Of course I'd love to see JRuby become the best Ruby implementation. What would be the point of working on JRuby if that weren't an ultimate goal? And of course I have a love for Java and the JVM; they've proven themselves in my eyes, and continue to amaze me. But I want JRuby to be part of a larger Ruby world, where programmers run through flower-covered pastures holding hands, objects sing and swirl through the heavens, classes condense, evaporate, and recombine like vapor. Where programming is "fun", like it was when I started BASIC on my Atari 400 25 years ago. Where our time spent writing software produces results, rather than more problems.

None of those things requires Java or the JVM...they just require cooperation within the community and a desire to see Ruby succeed on all fronts. The question that remains, I believe, is this:

Are you with me?

Progress on WAR, RMagick, OpenSSL, Mutex Fronts

The JRuby community continues to pick up steam!

A number of JRubyists have recently started actively looking at the problem of deploying Rails apps as a WAR file. Some have working prototypes as well. However the most interesting development is that a number of them have joined the jruby-extras project on RubyForge to combine their efforts. I'll be helping to oversee their progress, but this is a perfect example of a community-driven project. I don't doubt they'll make great progress.

RMagick will soon have a full-featured equivalent for JRuby. Tom Palmer has been working on a Java-based RMagick for some time, and now has a version of his RMagickJr that can render some basic Gruff Graphs. He's been in communication with the RMagick creator, and it's likely that we'll start to see gems available soon. Tom's work will help ensure that Rails apps using RMagick for image processing can work seamlessly under JRuby as well. RMagickJr is also hosted in the jruby-extras project.

Ola Bini has been continuing his quest to bring the openssl library to JRuby. He says he's getting very close to having a working library, and it's been a long, hard road. Full support for openssl will mean all Ruby libraries that depend on it will work without modification on JRuby. It's quite an effort, and Ola deserves a lot of credit for making it happen.

At RubyConf 2006, Matz and Koichi made the announcement that Thread.critical was very likely to go away in Ruby 1.9.1/2.0. The reasons for this are simple, and well-known to the JRuby project: Thread.critical is incompatible with native threading. My own implementations of Thread.critical have ranged from a very strict version which frequently deadlocked to the current version which only enforces critical sections in a very loose sense. I am very pleased to hear that critical will go away, but that doesn't help us now. However, there's hope. MenTaLguY has recently taken on the challenge of implementing a fast Mutex for both the C and Java versions of Ruby (MRI and JRuby, respectively). As I understand it, the current C implementation he's built exceeds even low-level Thread.critical performance, and we both agree that a Java version should be extremely easy to construct using Java's built-in synchronization capabilities. A fast Mutex is the first step toward moving people off Thread.critical...and saving me doing yet another doomed reimplementation of it in JRuby.

Other news:

Tom and I spoke with some folks from the HotSpot VM team last night, and it was an extremely helpful discussion. We talked about Ruby's language design and quirkier features, the future of dynlangs on the VM, compilation and optimization strategies for dynlangs, and the current roadmap for JRuby development. Bottom line: everything we're doing is right, and if we keep on this course we'll rapidly approach their notion of an optimal Ruby implementation. We also agreed there's very little about Ruby that couldn't be compiled straight down to Java code. It was great vindication to hear that our "best guess" strategies for slowly redesigning, refactoring, and compiling JRuby are all on the right track. It was also great to hear that our confidence in the JVM has not been misplaced: it IS an excellent VM for dynlangs, and JRuby should eventually perform extremely well. The future of Ruby on the JVM is looking great.

I will be presenting JRuby again today at the Twin Cities Code Camp, as one of the few Java-based presentations (the rest being primarily .NET-related). I guess that's all there is to say about that...it's going to be a condensed version of the Gateway JUG presentation with fewer walkthroughs and a much shorter overall time.

Tom and I are also scheduling our trip to Europe in December. We'll be in Prague from the 5th to the 9th to meet with the NetBeans development team; in Antwerp the following week for JavaPolis; and in Rotterdam on the 19th for my JRuby presentation at Finalist. It remains to be seen if I'll spend some of the holidays in Europe or if my wife will join me, but if you'd like to propose any speaking engagements that could keep me in the Old Country, certainly let me know :)

Poll on Favorite Java Scripting Lang

There's an interesting little poll here on favorite Java-based scripting lang:

What is your favorite Java based scripting language?

It doesn't look like the poll has been hit too hard, but JRuby seems to score much better than I would have expected, given our relatively recent entry into the public eye. Groovy has garnered about twice as many votes, but of course it's been very public and available for several years.

Also interesting are the poor scores for Jython and Rhino. Jython is a great implementation, but it's pretty far behind at this point. I wish there were more resources to pour into it...perhaps soon. Rhino is also interesting...only four votes so far, even though it's really fast and being included in Java 6.

BTW, please don't go stuffing the ballots for JRuby or anything. I just figured I'd get this poll some exposure to see how things play out. It already looks really good for JRuby, and if you want to vote for Groovy or any of the others, be my guest.

Java SE 6 Passes Final JCP Approval

Huzzah! Java 6 has been approved by the JCP. The final results on JSR 270 show that the voting was 13 for, none opposed, with three not voting. As I understand it, this is the final step toward officially releasing Java 6 to the masses.

Java 6 is really an incredible piece of software. Once again the Sun engineers have boosted performance--in some JRuby benchmarks by as much as 20%. Beyond that, they've include the first round of native platform scripting support in the form of JSR 223, a scripting API intended to replace and improve upon the Bean Scripting Framework. Java 6 also includes native support for Javascript in the form of Rhino, just about the fastest mainstream JavaScript engine available.

Honestly, give Java 6 a shot. I've been using it constantly because of the performance gains, and JRuby support for 223 is already available. This is the first Java release during my time at Sun, and I'm extremely proud to be a part of this team.

Gateway JUG: Such Fun!

Last night I gave my 2+ hour talk on Ruby, JRuby, and JRuby on Rails to the Gateway JUG in St Louis, and it seems to have been a resounding success. We had extremely good attendance, pushing 50 folks from what I could tell, and everyone seemed to be very excited for the possibilities of Ruby on the Java platform. Many folks told me they were going to be looking into Ruby and Rails for future development, and others promised to contribute to the project however possible.

It was a great experiment for me to do this presentation, primarily because it was one long demo. There were a few slides to bridge things together, but ultimately I spent two hours typing into IRB, vi, and bash to demonstrate Ruby, JRuby, and building and running a simple JRuby on Rails app. There were a few glitches (I forgot a few metaprogramming methods, and my new migration initially failed because I ran it on an already-migrated database) but I managed to recover from everything and get all my demos across. I think the live walkthroughs coupled with a very enthusiastic and interactive crowd made a fun presentation for folks in attendance.

Afterwards I had a few beers with the locals and we shared our war stories about Java application development and excitement for a Ruby-filled future. Judging by their reactions to the talk and the stories they related, I think this JRuby thing is poised to really take off.

I've uploaded my Gateway JUG JRuby slides so you can see and share them, and Alex Miller from BEA took a transcript of the JRuby live walkthroughs.

Gateway JUG JRuby Presentation (Opendoc)
Gateway JUG JRuby Presentation (PDF)

Java EE Architect? Need a Job?

My former employer, Ventera Corporation, is still looking to fill my old position. I was their lead/senior Java EE architect, in charge of development of EE applications for their USDA Food and Nutrition Service contracts. I worked at FNS's downtown Minneapolis office, though a large part of the development team resides in Virginia at Ventera HQ.

Update: BTW, I'll be interviewing you, if that's any motivation for or against you applying...

If you're interested, contact Christina Pritchett at Ventera:

Email: cpritchett@ventera.com
Phone: 703.442.5223

And here's the job description Christina gave me...exciting fun for a Friday afternoon:

Senior Java Developer/Team Lead/Architect
Travel: 10% (back to our HDQA in Mclean, VA)
On-boarding: first few weeks will need to be spent in our McLean office

This individual will work on a development team for a large government client to develop, deliver and support a web-based application from design through implementation.

Responsibilities:

• Perform as a team lead – mentor junior staff and serve as the primary point of contact for the customer
• Perform as system architect role in the development of large-scale applications
• Develop prototypes from business and technical requirements/use case documents
• Conduct unit and integration testing
• Provide source code documentation and write reusable code; Maintain existing code base and component library
• Develop clear and concise documentation for work assignments
• Meet critical project timeframes
• Follow coding/design standards and J2EE Design Patterns
• Maintain application by implementing client enhancements as requested

Qualifications:

• 7+ years of relevant work experience - must have a minimum of 3 years as a tech lead and system architect (i.e. system design, performance tuning, and system prototyping & maintenance)
• Strong knowledge of Eclipse 3.1, WebLogic Platform 8.1, Hibernate, Spring, CVS (including branch based release management), Bugzilla (admin/server side), and Apache web server
• Ability to configure WebLogic server/cluster and troubleshoot issues related to WebLogic clusters
• Extensive knowledge about best practices across multiple disciplines including requirements analysis, architectural design, QA, project management, and configuration management
• Experience with Enterprise Java Beans development and related technologies (XML, JNDI, RMI, JMS, MDB) required
• Hands-on coding experience with: Java, JSP, STRUTS, HTML, EJB 2.0 (Session and Entity), JDBC, JAXP, JMS, and JTA required
• Experience with container managed persistence, container managed relationships and EJB query language
• Prior experience with Object-oriented analysis and design, including use case development, class modeling, J2EE design patterns (Factory, Façade, Singleton, Business Delegate, Service Locator, Dependency Injection, Data Access Object) and UML required
• Hands-on knowledge of application security support for e-commerce applications and relational database programming using SQL and JDBC required
• Ability to write and modify large ANT build scripts supporting builds and deploys in multiple environments
• Applied knowledge of JBoss and Configuration Management Processes is highly desirable
• Must have the ability to work in a team environment and work independently on client engagements
• Experience in professional consulting or like industry required
• Strong written & verbal communication skills required
• Keen interest in emerging Java technologies and industry best practices required
• Ability to set technical direction for application architecture and development discipline, and assess the impact of architecture changes on the business and application is required
• SCJP, SCJD and/or BEA Developer Certification is a plus
• Experience with SQL, JBoss, Hibernate and Spring strongly preferred

Education:

• BS in Computer Science, Engineering, or other related technical discipline required

Next Gig: Gateway JUG, St. Louis, Nov 7

Well the arrangements have all been made for my trip down to St. Louis for the November Gateway JUG meeting. I'll be presenting the usual fare, JRuby and JRuby on Rails stuff, except this time there's a few twists.

Twist One: I'll be presenting for 2+ hours

Yes, this one has me just a bit nervous...not because I think I'll have a problem presenting for that long or because I don't think I'll have enough material, but because I want to keep people awake the whole time. I've been told I'm a pretty good presenter, but even the best presentations can drag on after a while. Which leads me to the second twist:

Twist Two: I'll do 80-90% of the presentation manually

Yes, that's right...I'm going to be using IRB, command-line tools, IDEs, browsers, etc for most of the presentation. I think I've got my typing speed up to a comfortable enough level to keep people interested, and it's quite a bit more fun to watch things happen live than to see pictures or read slides. Plus it will be a unique challenge to do what basically amounts to a two-hour demo. You know me and challenges.

So a few links to information:

Gateway JUG - The Gateway JUG home page
JRuby: Bringing Ruby to the Java Platform - Description of the talk, my bio-of-the-month, directions and other info

And a rough overview of the talk (yes, this is the short, short list. I've got two pages for the long list):

• Intro to Ruby and JRuby
• Interactive demo of Ruby's major features
• What JRuby adds
• Interactive demo of JRuby
• Break
• Intro to Ruby on Rails
• What JRuby adds
• Building a simple Rails app
• JRuby status and future
• Conclusion

If you're going to be in the area on November 7, come watch me battle demo gremlins for two solid hours. It should be rife with action and adventure, love and laughs, guts and glory. Or at least you'll get to see both a JRuby and a JRuby on Rails presentation in one fun-filled night for free. That's worth it, no?

Update: There's an event flyer now as well.

Compiler Progress: MultiStub and Full-Script Compilation

I spent today hacking on the Ruby to Java compiler and made some good progress. Here's the highlights:

• It now parses a full script rather than just single method bodies.
• The toplevel of the script is given its own method, and defined methods get theirs.
• It uses MultiStub to implement the methods, so it will be faster than reflection.
• It's more aware of incoming arguments, rather than assuming a single argument as in the previous revision.
• It's generating a bit faster code, maybe 5-10% improvement.

MultiStub is our way of implementing many relocatable methods without generating a class-per-method or using reflection. We're using it today in our Enumerable implementation, and it works very well. Some numbers comparing our two reflection-based method binding techniques with MultiStub:

Invocation of a noop "test" method:

t = Time.now; 10000000.times { test }; puts Time.now - t
# test is alternately implemented using each of the three techniques

Control run (with no call to test in the block):

4.33s

ReflectionCallback-based (like Kernel methods today):

20.7s

ReflectedMethod-based (like most methods in normal classes):

19.3s

MultiStub-based (like Enumerable today):

14.9s

So simply switching to the MultiStub trims off around 20% for this benchmark. Removing the time to actually do 10M invocations of the block it comes closer to the 30% range. We're looking to start using MultiStub more in core classes. Anyway, back on topic...

What still needs to be done on the compiler:

• I didn't implement any additional nodes, so it only handles perhaps 20% of them.
  
• The toplevel method should define the contained methods as they're encountered. I'm wiring them all up manually in the test script right now.
• It doesn't have any smarts for binding Ruby method names to the generated MultiStub methods yet.

It's a big leap in the right direction though, since you can pass it a script and it will try to compile the whole thing to Java code. Here's the results of the recursive fib benchmark with the new compiler (calculating fib(30)):

Time for bi-recursive, interpreted: 14.859
Time for bi-recursive, compiled: 9.825

Ruby 1.8.5:

Time for bi-recursive, interpreted: 1.677

This was in the mid 10-second range previously, so this is the first time we've dropped below 10 seconds. This puts the compiled code around 6x as slow as Ruby for this benchmark, which is very method-call intensive. Still, it's a solid 33% improvement over the interpreted version...probably an even larger percentage improvement if we don't count method-call overhead. Now on to iterative results, which are very light on interpretation (calculating fib(500000)):

Time for iterative, interpreted: 58.681
Time for iterative, compiled: 58.345

JRuby sans ObjectSpace support:

Time for iterative, interpreted: 47.638
Time for iterative, compiled: 47.563

Ruby 1.8.5:

Time for iterative, interpreted: 50.770461

For the iterative benchmark we're still about on par with (or around 20% slower than) Ruby because there's no interpretation involved and Java's BigInteger is faster than Ruby's Bignum. When ObjectSpace is turned off (it's pure overhead for us), the iterative version runs faster in JRuby. Once we eliminate some method overhead, things should improve more.

Moving right along.

Transcript of Second Life Presentation

There's now a complete transcript of my JRuby presentation for the Rubyists of Second Life complete with my slides and all the inter-avatar discussion. It's raw and it's real, and it was a lot of fun.

Larry the Liquid has also posted a JRuby of Second Life Recap that gives readers a good idea what it was like to "be there" and has a few photos to show it off. I'm the one standing down by the screen, and though you can't really tell, I'm wearing a JRuby t-shirt.

If only it were as cheap and easy to print t-shirts in Real Life as it is in Second Life...

Rite, Rubinius, and Everything: Seeking the Answer to Ruby's Future

As most of you know, I was recently at RubyConf to see the latest developments in the Ruby world and to meet up with others interested in Ruby's future. A lot's happened in the past year, and Ruby has become the big ticket language in many circles. Developers from all parts of the world are sitting up and taking notice of the little gem that could, and those of us who love the language couldn't be happier about it.

This was my third RubyConf. I have attended since 2004, when I first came to Ruby as a rank newb. Immediately after arriving at RubyConf 2004 I started poking around for a Ruby implementation on the JVM. That brought me to JRuby, where my old friend and coworker had taken the reins. The rest you know...and it's not hard to see how Ruby has completely changed my life.

RubyConf this year was an outstanding collection of presentations and personalities. The applicability of the presentations seemed considerably higher than in previous years. Where last year many presentations were demonstrations of "this cool app I wrote" or explorations of problem domains I'll never approach, this year's topics seemed to cover whole subdomains of the programming ecosystem. They ranged from alternative Ruby implementations (two total plus two bridges), to natural language processing and generation (at least two I can think of), to Unicode and i18n (Tim Bray's excellent presentation and many discussions that followed), to networking, testing, graphics, and more. A whirlwind tour of damn near everything you might want to do with a programming language.

Beyond the standard conference fare, there was RejectConf, an ad-hoc sub-conference for all those who had their presentations rejected (or who missed deadlines, like me). It was a multi-hour flurry of 5-15 minute presentations on all those OTHER topics not covered in the main track. I gave a five-minute demo of JRuby's growing capabilities and NetBeans' nascent Ruby refactoring features--to many oohs and ahhs and even one f-word.

And then there was the hallway track, by far the most interesting part of the conference for me this year. I joined with several other Ruby implementers and interested parties for a full-on "implementers summit" Friday night. I met up with Ruby dignitaries, JRuby enthusiasts, and late-night hackers. I shared my pains implementing Ruby with others and had a good cry over some of Ruby's trickier-to-implement features. It was eating, sleeping, and breathing Ruby for three solid days. And now I'm home again.

I will here call out the more interesting presentations, discussions, and developments from my RubyConf 2006 adventure. I hope you will find these events as interesting and exciting as I did.

The Presentations

I won't pretend I loved every single presentation. I was bored by several and fell asleep during one. But there were some real gems this year, and they show the face of Ruby to come.

TAKAHASHI Masayoshi -- The History of Ruby

Takahashi-san kicked off the conference perfectly with his presentation on the history of all things Ruby. From Ruby's Pre-Historic Age in the mid-90's to the pre-Rails Modern Age, all the important facts and dates were delivered in Takahashi's trademark style. Everyone in the room learned something about Ruby's past and the long road it has traveled, including the rational for why Ruby came into existence in the first place and the name-that-almost-was: Coral.

Evan Phoenix -- Sydney and Rubinius: Hardcore Ruby

Evan is the creator of the semi-controversial "Sydney Ruby", an ambitious attempt to bring full native threading to Ruby 1.8. Sydney's drastic code changes prevented it from ever being merged into MRI, but the experience led Evan to attempt a more ambitious project: Rubinius.

Rubinius is, simply put, a Smalltalk-like self-bootstrapping VM for Ruby. A small microkernel provides memory management, IO, and other native interfaces, and then actual VM features are all implemented in a customized subset of Ruby. The resulting VM can then load in full-featured Ruby code and execute it like the existing interpreters do today.

Evan and I had talked at length online about his plans for Rubinius, and we both discovered we weren't alone in understanding some of the darker corners of Ruby's C implementation. Rubinius is a project to watch.

Zed Shaw - Iron Mongrel: Fuzzing, Auditing, Thrashing, Risk and The Ways Of Mongrel Destruction

This was my first time seeing Zed present, and I definitely agree he's very entertaining. Zed was at RubyConf to talk about RFuzz, a library for fuzzing HTTP services to test for security or stability issues. Fuzzing, for those of you who don't know, is generating a lot of random or pseudo-random noise (in this case, HTTP requests) and brutalizing some target service. Zed described how under fuzzed loads, many servers and libraries previously thought to be rock-solid crumble quickly and painfully. It seems to be in our nature to assume that all clients of our code will follow the rules we expect them to, even though we consciously know they won't. Fuzzing helps remind us.

It was also my first experience having Zed read my mind. Toward the end of his presentation, I raised my hand to ask about the possibility of using fuzzing against language implementations...to test parsers for robustness. Before I had a chance to ask, Zed talked about working on exactly that. He's planning to pull out the HTTP bits of RFuzz so it can be used as a general-purpose fuzzing tool, and being able to fuzz Ruby is already on his mind.

Saturday night Nick Sieger and I stayed up late hacking on stuff with Evan, Eric Hodel, Zed Shaw, and others. I had a chat with Zed about Mongrel-Java and we made some plans for how the future might play out. We agreed it would be best to just focus on getting 0.4 to work well and to explore the new Java support in Ragel. Zed also agreed it would be a good idea to provide a Mongrel gem that would work in JRuby. When Zed's ready to release 0.4, it's very likely there will be a new platform option: Java.

John Long - Radiant -- Content Managment Simplified

I mention Radiant not because it was a particularly stunning presentation or a particularly innovative application, but because it looked so polished...so businesslike. Other folks weren't terribly impressed, perhaps because it wasn't a lot of sound and fury. I was impressed for exactly the same reason: it's apps like this that are going to legitimize Ruby and Rails for prime-time business applications. We'll have to make an effort to get Radiant running in JRuby.

Tim Bray - I18n, M17n, Unicode, and all that

This was my second time watching Tim present. He does a great job of conveying a large amount of information in a very digestable way. His presentation helped everyone in the room understand a bit better how Unicode works, why it's important, and what Ruby and other languages can or should do to support it. I learned quite a bit myself.

Of particular interest were related events peripheral to the talk. Matz apparently was worried about what Tim might say, since so many folks are worried about Unicode support in Ruby and questions have been raised about Matz's m17n plan for Ruby 2.0. I think Tim was very equitable, however, laying out the facts and allowing Matz and everyone else to draw their own conclusions. Hopefully the community and the Ruby implementers will all take what they learned and run with it.

SASADA Koichi - YARV: on Rails?

I was pleasantly surprised by Koichi's progress on YARV. Getting Rails to run on an alternative implementation is no small feat, but that's exactly what Koichi demoed. Sure, it was just a simple scaffolded app, and much of Ruby's internals are still the same code under YARV, but it's excellent to see YARV starting to run real apps.

I was a bit disappointed, however, with the plan for native thread support in YARV. According to Koichi, the difficulty of native-threading Ruby will prevent full parallel thread support any time soon. Even when Ruby 1.9.1 with YARV merged is released in December 2007 (yes, that's right, over a year from now) it will only support one native thread running at a time. I understand Koichi has been given an almost impossible task, but I'd hoped that a year from now native threading would be real and robust.

Koichi did announce, however, that he would now officially have a fulltime job where one of his tasks is to work on YARV. He's got an office in Akihabara, and he sounded pretty excited about the future of his work. I talked with him a few times during the conference, and I think we're going to try to implement a YARV machine in JRuby. It seems to make sense, since Koichi has done much of the hard work determining an appropriate set of bytecodes and has a compiler already mostly working. Koichi is also excited about that possibility.

John Lam - You got your Ruby in my CLR!

John Lam is the creator of the RubyCLR project, a bridge from the Ruby runtime to the .NET CLR. He demonstrated how you can call CLR-hosted code from Ruby and implement interfaces that call back our of the CLR into Ruby code, much like JRuby supports today. He also demonstrated a very pretty Avalon-based Ruby console that works like IRB but with on-screen documentation and Intelli-Sense popup method completion.

John announced that he's been hired by Microsoft to work on their dynamic language initiatives--especially Ruby--so it seems he will be my counterpart there come January. john promised not to do evil, and he and I agreed we should not allow our differing employers to come in the way of providing world-class support for Ruby. I hope politics won't get in the way of innovation and creativity, as it so often does...and I believe that John agrees.

--

I'll check back in my next post with a summary of the implementer's summit and other excitement from the conference. This post is a bit long already :)

JRuby at Rubyists of Second Life TONIGHT

I should have tossed this in a blog entry earlier, but perhaps it's not too late.

I will be presenting JRuby to the Rubyists of Second Life this evening at 6PDT. Here's the announcement sent to Ruby-Talk, which has all the relevant info:

JRuby at Rubyists of Second Life

I hope you'll stop by and join in the conversation. I'll have a set of slides, but more importantly I'll be available for discussions on JRuby, Ruby, Java, and their future together. I'm "Headius Exodus" in SL. See you there!

JRuby on Rails: WEBrick vs AsyncWeb

Some fellow name TAKAI Naoto has posted an interesting comparison of JRuby on Rails running under WEBrick versus running under AsyncWeb:

TAKAI Naoto compares WEBrick and AsyncWeb and a comical translation.

Although the numbers he shows for WEBrick seem *awfully* slow (4-6 seconds per request...we haven't been that slow since JavaOne running Rails in "development" mode) what's most interesting is the speed gains he gets from AsyncWeb: something like a five times improvement. If we assume there would be an improvement running a more recent JRuby (0.9.1 should be considerably faster than all previous versions) and running Rails in production mode...well, this thing starts to look real-world ready.

He has a link to a snapshot...I'm investigating that now and will update this post when I know more.

See also Takai's post about about JRuby on Rails running under AsyncWeb:

TAKAI Naoto running JRuby on Rails with AsyncWeb and translation.

These sorts of things show real promise...AsyncWeb scales extremely well and is built upon Java's NIO library. A new contender enters the Rails front-ending competition!

Update: Ok, I've spent five minutes looking at the code, and it's cooler than I thought. He's got AsyncWeb and JRuby on Rails wired together using Spring, and it's a trivial amount of code to do it...like less code than WEBrick. I hope he's able to get a release out for this soon.

Here's a direct link to his rails-asyncweb snapshot. Super cool.

Another Year, Another Interpreter

It's been approximately a year since I launched into my first redesign of the JRuby interpreter engine, and a lot has happened since then. We've gotten Rails working as well as improving compatibility to the point where most other pure Ruby apps just work. We've filled out the base set of extensions and have active projects to complete what's left. We've built up a very active and intelligent community, all of whom are helping by contributing bug reports and patches. And perhaps most importantly for the project, Tom and I have been given the privilege of working on JRuby full time.

But none of that was because of the interpreter.

JRuby Interpreter History 101

The original JRuby interpreter, written by the original authors (Jan Arne Petersen and others), followed a pretty standard Visitor pattern. The AST nodes were visited in turn, and on each callback appropriate actions were performed. It was a perfect demonstration of Visitor in action, but the additional calls required to visit each node in turn badly impacted the Java call stack. At its lowest, before I began my work, JRuby on Windows under Java 1.4.2 could recurse no deeper than 300 levels in a simple single-recursive fib algorithm. And this while Ruby itself could go into the thousands.

However stack depth alone wasn't a good enough reason to work on a new interpreter. There were various ways we could clean up the stack size without a complete rework. Unfortunately, there were two Ruby features that at the time meant a new interpreter would be necessary: green threads and continuations.

Green Rubies

Ruby currently supports only green threading. The threading model is very simple; one native thread, the main process, pumps the entire interpreter. Once threads come into play, a signal or timer is set up using OS-specific calls. A new thread means a new set of global variables; variables that point into the thread's call stack, variable scopes, and current execution point. The signal/timer, once initiated, triggers a potential thread switch every 10ms by setting a global switch. On certain boundaries during execution, that switch is checked, and if it is set a call is made into the thread scheduler to set up the next thread for execution.

In short, a 10ms timeslicing green thread scheduler. And I believe that thread context switching is *voluntary*...it would be possible in a C extension or through specific Ruby scripts to prevent context switching at all.

But I digress. Green threading does carry with it some benefits. Because you are not dependent on the operating system for initialization and cleanup of thread data, you can manipulate threads much more easily. Ruby supports operations that native threading libraries forbid, like killing existing threads or stopping them indefinitely. Now it would not be such a problem if these operations were used sparingly, but during our testing we found that many libraries depend on them. So then we had a dilemma: how to support unsafe threading operations with safe native threads?

The initial solution, and the one we currently have in place, works reasonably well but could certainly be improved. On the same boundaries that the C implementation checks for a context switch, we check a set of runtime-global variables and locks. Various "unsafe" thread events trigger those locks and variables to change state. Kill sets a kill flag; upon encountering it the native JRuby thread will throw a ThreadKill exception. Entering a critical section sets a critical flag on all threads; when they reach it, they'll freeze in their tracks until the critical thread has completed. For the most part, the Ruby code behaves as it does in MRI, though backed by native threads. It's not foolproof, but it's sneaky and good enough for now. Emulation and simulation. Subterfuge and legerdemain.

A New Hope

When I launched into my redesign a year ago, I hoped to enable a different solution. I wanted to build a purely stackless Ruby interpreter that could support continuations and green threads. Because it would still run on top of a native-threaded VM, I planned to also support m:n threading, so JRuby could scale through a full range of threading options. And even though it was a very large task, the basic building blocks were already necessary: continuations would not be possible while deepening the Java stack (without really nasty tricks), and so green threading came along for the ride.

The first step was to make the interpreter stackless. This I mostly achieved by hacking the existing visitor into individual pieces. Each method that had previously been called during visitation was encapsulated in an Instruction implementation. The state associated with the interpreter was put into an EvaluationState object. Each instruction, when called, would receive an instance of EvaluationState and an InstructionContext that was usually just the AST node being traversed. The visitor now became a factory for Instructions; as it visited the AST nodes, instructions were pushed down into an instruction stack in the EvaluationState object; the previous deepening of the Java stack being emulated via a soft stack. As traversal went deeper, both the visitor and the instructions themselves would push more instructions down onto the stack. Execution meant popping the top instruction, running it, and returning back to the interpreter loop. An instruction could affect the state of the runtime or change the flow of execution by conditionally pushing further instructions on the stack. It was a fairly clever way to directly translate the old code into a stackless design.

As of this past spring, perhaps 80% of the AST nodes were fully represented with what I called "collapsed" instructions. This basically meant that for much of the AST, execution could proceed without the Java stack deepening. The tradeoff was in the additional overhead of maintaining a soft stack in the EvaluationState and a considerably more complicated interpreter design. But it worked, and after several months of tweaking it was faster than the original. Even better, it greatly improved our maximum stack depth.

The next step, if had we taken it, was to begin the painful task of making the rest of the interpreter stackless. The design I had in mind would have called for all Java-implemented methods to trampoline; in other words, calling a method would mean that whether it made an additional call or returned, control came back to the caller. The caller, in that design, would have been the overarching ThreadContext. Execution of a thread would begin by pointing a new ThreadContext at a starting node in the AST. As the thread executed, the stackless interpreter would maintain the Java stack depth at the ThreadContext level. Calls into Java-based methods would dispatch back to ThreadContext for deeper calls, so that any deepening of the Ruby stack did not actually deepen the Java stack. At any given time, ThreadContext could be frozen; the native thread pumping it could then be passed off to another ThreadContext, or used for other purposes. And of course, continuations would have been trivial to implement with this model, since the current running state of a ThreadContext could be saved at any time.

Whew! It was an ambitious goal, but with the mostly-stackless interpreter in place we were well on the way. I even had designs for how to compile Ruby code into stackless Java methods...so stackless that you could even pull off a continuation in the middle of a call. Like magic!

A Fork in the Road

So what happened? Sometime around JavaOne we heard about the Ruby KaiGi in Japan, a Ruby conference or get-together of some sort. If RubyConf is the big conference for us Westerners, this at least provided a mid-year update for English-speaking Rubyists. Matz was there, Koichi was there, and I believe other Ruby dignitaries made the trip as well.

And then Matz and Koichi dropped the bomb: Ruby 2.0 would support neither continuations nor green threads.

As many of you know, Koichi's next-generation Ruby interpreter engine, YARV, has been coming along in fits and starts. Because of the desire to keep existing extensions working and because of a lack of resources to work on Ruby internals, YARV has had many difficult problems to overcome. How do you write a next-generation interpreter without actually changing how the runtime works? Is it possible to do it without a new threading implementation, a new memory manager, a new garbage collector? Can you keep all your internal APIs exposed to C extensions and successfully migrate to a new interpreter design? I think the answer is that yes, you can, but it's really, really hard. And along with the announcement about continuations and green threads came the YARV/Rite (Ruby 2.0 + YARV) beta timeline: no earlier than Christmas 2007.

So we were faced with a decision. Do we continue along the much more complicated path toward green threads and continuations, knowing that they will eventually be unsupported by the language? Is it worth the effort to support them now if they'll go away?

We stewed over this decision for a week or two. We had been making all the right moves toward a stackless design, and were on the cusp of launching into the next set of battles. But it was a painful process.

Pragmatism

Eventually we decided that under the circumstances, the Ruby and JRuby communities would be better served by having a solid, native-threaded, continuation-free implementation on the JVM. We were unable to find any use of continuations in the most popular applications, and it seemed that very few people had a good reason to use them. In addition, there was growing concern over Ruby's lack of support for native threads; so there too was a opportunity for JRuby to shine.

Very little of the interpreter changed over the summer. We worked furiously in our spare hours getting Rails running, and were able to present it in a primitive form at JavaOne. I started work on a number of traditional compiler designs for JRuby that showed potential gains of 50-75% over the existing code. And most importantly, our community, compatibility, and test library all began to grow rapidly.

Toward the end of the summer, it became likely that we would join Sun Microsystems as full-time JRuby developers. Sun had wisely taken an interest in Ruby along with other scripting languages, and because we had shown some of the potential for Ruby on the JVM, they asked us to join their team. And just four weeks ago, I became a Sun employee.

JRuby Now and Into the Future

So where has all this led? JRuby has been getting more and more attention from folks within Sun, Rubyists around the world, and especially from Java developers anxious to escape from their Java-only prisons. Our compatibility is increasing faster than before; we've had over a hundred new bugs reported in the past few weeks...almost all of them with community-contributed patches. We have added our first non-Sun team member Ola Bini, a star of the JRuby community who has proven his dedication to making Ruby on the JVM succeed. And we have started to solidify our short-term goals for the project.

The primary goal remains the same: JRuby should be as close to 100% compatible with Ruby 1.8 as possible. Today, we are doing extremely well in this department. Rails generally works without issues, and most pure Ruby applications run without modification. There's still plenty of edge cases to iron out, but we're moving very rapidly now. Getting Rails to work as well as it does is already a major achievement.

We have also started to iron out what a JRuby 1.0 release should look like. A few major points come up again and again:

• Compatibility should be such that we can safely claim "Rails is supported"
• Java integration should look like we want it to look for the future, and should be performant, lightweight, and seamless
• All major codebase refactorings should be complete; this includes a solid design for wiring up Java-based method implementations, external extensions, and IO channels
• Unicode should be supported out-of-the-box, giving Ruby code access to everything Java is capable of
• Threading should work perfectly, both for JRuby-launched threads and for "adopted" threads from outside the runtime
• Performance should be markedly improved

This last bullet may sound a little less ambitious than the others. Performance has been a major concern of mine, but it's also the most difficult goal to quantify. If JRuby runs Rails almost as fast as Ruby, is that enough? Well, perhaps, but Rails is a very IO-intensive application, so it's not a particularly good measure of core JRuby performance. If JRuby is many times slower than Ruby for certain command-line tools, should a release be delayed? Perhaps, but it's not so cut-and-dried; a JRuby that's slow on the command-line may perform exceedingly well once hosted on a long-running server.

There is one piece of the puzzle, however, that performance neatly excludes: vastly complicated stackless green-threaded continuable interpreter engines.

Late-Night Hacking

We had basically made the decision not to continue down the green threading path this summer, but we had made no effort to reverse the work I had already done. We always suspected that a more traditional engine would perform better, but attempting another redesign was a very large task nobody wanted to tackle.

Last night I got bored of hunting around for juicy performance tidbits. I wanted to tackle something bigger.

About 9:00PM on Thursday, I started rewriting the interpreter engine to be a more straightforward switch-based affair. Instead of Instruction stacks and EvaluationState, or even Visitors, it would be a fast, concise switch statement, recursing as the AST deepened and affecting state changes along the way. I felt a certain sadness ripping up the old interpreter; I had spent weeks on that code last year, and was proud of what I'd accomplished. It's no small feat to turn a recursive, visitor-based interpreter into a stackless, instruction-based machine. Unfortunately, I knew that design would never serve JRuby the way we needed it to. It was designed for another purpose, and its complexity and cost gained us very little in the long term. And as of 9:00PM Friday, after working furiously for 24 hours, it was gone.

The new interpreter is, as I stated, a large switch statement. Each AST node is assigned an int, so the main "eval" call can quickly determine the correct code to execute for each. The new design does result in faster deepening of the Java stack (about a 15-20% hit to fib max-depth), but it still performs far better than the original visitor-based implementation. And although we'd only theorized up to this point, it does perform a good bit better than the Instruction-based engine.

Rake Installation Performance

Pretty much the first thing anyone does with Ruby is install some application or tool they need. And nine times out of ten, they install it with RubyGems.

One of our favorite benchmarks is a local RubyGems install of Rake, Ruby's answer to make. For reasons which are not yet clear, the documentation-generator RDoc--which is called as part of a RubyGem installation--performs extremely poorly under JRuby. RDoc is basically implemented as a series of source-code parsers that generate documentation based on special comment tags embedded in the code. And it's written in pure Ruby, so it's a good benchmark for JRuby.

We've been steadily improving performance. The following sets of numbers show our progress, all the way up through teh new interpreter:

JRuby 0.9.0, stackless interpreter, Java 6:
real 1m 58.465s
user 2m 1.671s
sys 0m 2.625s

JRuby 0.9.1 current trunk code, stackless interpreter, Java 6:
real 1m 10.488s
user 1m 13.075s
sys 0m 2.013s

JRuby headius branch, new interpreter, Java 6:
real 1m 0.489s
user 1m 5.220s
sys 0m 1.849s


What's Next for Performance

The numbers above spell it out pretty clearly; we've managed to double performance since the 0.9.0 release at the beginning of the summer. We've also managed to do that without writing a compiler and with a vast number of optimizations still on the table. Things are looking very good. Among future performance-enhancing changes:

• Reducing the cost of method calls. Currently a given method call generates an absurd amount of transient objects, like arrays copied into ArrayLists unwrapped into arrays, again and again. We must clean up the call path to minimize object churn.
• Building more pre-optimization into static structures in the system. Many areas of the system are cloned or regenerated again and again without ever changing. Blocks, for example, have only 5 mutable fields...but we clone the entire block for every invocation. By saving off the static bits of the system once, we lower the cost of all operations.
• ThreadContext is still alive and well; it has always represented the Ruby thread within the JRuby runtime, holding stacks for framing calls, scoping variables, and managing blocks. Unfortunately, the only way to access it is through a moderately expensive threadlocal call, and believe me we hit that call hard. Part of the new interpreter design helps limit those calls; further work in the rest of the runtime will help eliminate them.
• The bytecode compiler *will* happen. It's been on hold primarily because the runtime is still evolving. Because even compiled Ruby code will likely still have ties to the JRuby runtime, we need to first iron out how the runtime should look and act long-term.

I've had a great time this past year working on JRuby, and things are really starting to pick up speed. I'm sure the next year's going to be even crazier...especially once JRuby 1.0 comes around the corner.

Thanks all for your support. I'm having a blast.

New JRuby Syntax for Importing Java Classes

We've added a cleaner, simpler syntax to JRuby for including Java classes into a given namespace. It stemmed from a response of mine to a user on the JRuby mailing lists, and has been committed to trunk already. Almost everyone on the list agreed this new syntax is better.

Tom sums up the history of JRuby's Java include syntax in his blog post, but here's the executive summary.

Where before you would use this:

include_class "java.util.ArrayList"
include_class("java.lang.String") { |p,n| "J" + n }

You now can simply do this:

ArrayList = java.util.ArrayList
JString = java.lang.String

And this syntax also works directly; no assignment to a constant is required:

class MyClass < java.awt.event.ActionListener
...
end

Pretty slick, if you ask me.

Ola Bini Joins JRuby Development Team

We're proud and excited to announce that Ola Bini has officially joined the JRuby development team. Ola has proven to be one of the most valuable community contributors to JRuby, and he's shown that he's dedicated to making Ruby on the JVM a reality. He's the sole creator of the RbYAML and JvYAML projects that have enabled high-performance YAML support in JRuby, he single-handedly implemented Enumerable in Java, he has been the primary developer behind our Zlib support, and he's contributed numerous patches and fixes over the past 8 months.

Thank you Ola for all your help, and welcome to the team!

Performance Progress Since 0.9.0

I love comparing current trunk against 0.9.0. It always makes me happy.

Here are the numbers for a local gem install rake. The second set of numbers is trunk plus a ThreadContext-passing experimental patch I'm working on. Without my experimental patch, trunk benchmarks about four seconds slower.

0.9.0:
real 2m1.867s
user 2m2.158s
sys 0m2.768s

trunk + my patch:
real 1m22.221s
user 1m22.322s
sys 0m2.813s

That's an increase of 32%. Are we having fun yet?

The best part of this is that we haven't even started on a number of very promising performance changes, and we're still not compiling anything. Nibbling, nibbling away at overhead is paying serious dividends.

More People Who Get It

There's been some good blogging lately related to dynamic languages and their future in a Java-based world. I'm glad there's smart folks out there who really get it; the JVM is a great piece of engineering, and the Java platform is as rich and feature-complete as anything out there. Combined with dyntyped languages, anything's possible.

Steve Yegge: Ruby and Java and Stuff

Steve calls out some of Ruby's gems, Java's failings, and seems to agree that Sun's making the right move pushing for broader language support on the JVM. Oddly enough, he never calls out JRuby specifically, even when mentioning Ruby, Java, and JVM scripting in the same paragraph. www.jruby.org, Stevey.

Rick DeNatale: Performance Anxiety

Rick sums up a post on performance by John Duimovich nicely: dynamic languages absolutely do not have to be slow, and even a language as dynamic as Ruby should perform far better than it does today. Perhaps YARV will be the answer in the C world. I'll work my fingers to the bone making sure JRuby is the answer in the Java world.

Alex Russell: The Platform Strategy

Alex sees what the world is starting to see: that Java the platform was the reason it won, not Java the language. The indivisible trinity of platform, language and JVM is a thing of the past, and developers will be better off as a result. Alex is also right about the JRuby hiring by Sun; it's a good first step that must be followed up by continuing and increasing action. You have my promise to do what I must to ensure that happens.

Why Add Syntax When You Have Ruby?

A question came up this morning on the JRuby Users mailing list about a feature Jython and Groovy support: constructors that initialize bean attributes. The example given used a JLabel:

JLabel(text, bounds = bounds, foreground = color)

Which ends up being roughly equivalent to:

x = JLabel(text)
x.bound = bounds
x.foreground = color

Groovy has a similar syntax I won't illustrate here. So why doesn't Ruby support this, or perhaps why doesn't JRuby automatically support this syntax for Java types?

To answer, let's take a look at what it would take to add this to current Ruby with only existing features.

The equivalent syntax in Ruby or JRuby might look like:

SomeClass.new(text, :bounds => bounds, :foreground => foreground)

...or possibly using a block as in:

SomeClass.new(text) { @bounds = bounds, @foreground = foreground }

However there's no existing accomodation in the semantics of Ruby for these syntax to work out of the box. It would not be hard to write a short bit of code to allow constructing objects in this fashion, of course (using the block approach as an example):

class Class
 def construct(*baseargs, &initializer)
   x = self.new(*baseargs)
   x.instance_eval(&initializer) if initializer
   x
 end
end

...which would allow the block example above to work fine (with "construct" in place of "new"). For proxied Java objects, which don't actually have ruby instance vars (@whatever above) it would have to be a slightly different call:

JLabel.construct(text) { self.bounds = bounds, self.foreground =
foreground }

This works fine, but it's perhaps a little less beautiful. What about this impl instead?

class Class
 def construct(*baseargs)
   x = self.new(*baseargs)
   yield.each_pair { |k,v| x.send("#{k}=", *v) } if block_given?
   x
 end
end

Which would allow a variation:

JLabel.construct(text) {{ :bounds => bounds, :foreground =>
foreground }}

(the double {{}} is intentional; the block returns a hash of initializers)

The bottom line is that this kind of syntactic sugar in other languages can easily be added to Ruby through various techniques, and so features like field-initializing constructors don't need to be part of the core language or any of the implementations.

Does anyone still wonder why I love this language?

Interface Implementation Syntax and Open Classes

Tom and I got together and brainstormed the interface implementation issue today. We think we've come up with a reasonably solid solution.

First some background.

As most of you will know, the current way to implement a Java interface with Ruby code is to extend it:

include_class "java.awt.event.ActionListener"

class MyListener < ActionListener
...
end

This works fine for many cases, and it's great for a simple single-interface implementation. However it breaks down if you want to extend either a Java or Ruby class at the same time or if you want to implement multiple interfaces.

A few weeks back, we on the JRuby dev list kicked around the idea of using mixin
inheritance to do interface implementation:

class MyListener
  implement ActionListener
end

This has the advantage of allowing you to also extend a class and implement multiple interfaces, but there's a problem here. By the time we encounter MyListener, the class is already created and there's no opportunity to make such drastic changes as modifying the list of implemented interfaces.

In the case above, MyListener is already created as a pure Ruby class by the time we encounter the implement line...we can't then change it into a Ruby/Java proxy class. Even if we had a way to mark it ahead of time as a Java proxy, that proxy would have to be created already by the time we're in the class body. Ruby's unusual way of instantiating classes is to blame: all classes start out "blank" and the class body is basically eval'ed within that blank instance. With Java types, we do not have such flexibility.

So a new option comes into the debate today. It's not as clean, and it's not as Rubyish, but it should support Java typing and Java interface implementation very well:

include_class "java.util.AbstractList"
include_class "java.util.Map"

MapList = AbstractList.implement(Map)

class MyMapList < MapList
...
end

Or the shortcut version:

class MyMapList < AbstractList.implement(Map)

We will probably also continue to allow the single-inheritance shortcuts as well, since they're nice and clean:

class MyListener < ActionListener
end

...which is roughly synonymous with:

include_class("java.lang.Object") { |p, n| "J" + n }

class MyListener < JObject.implement(ActionListener)
end

The logic behind this approach (very similar to that being taken by RubyCLR and IronPython) is that a concrete class plus multiple interfaces as a whole represents a very rigid, specific type in the Java world. We do not have the flexibility to juggle the internals of those types after they're created, so having a very clear-cut way of specifying that combination of concrete + interfaces allows us to satisfy Java's typing requirements. We can then extend that with Ruby code, implement whatever we want, alter behavior, reopen classes, and so on. We're essentially creating a rigid top-level Java type with a "back door" for implementing its behavior with Ruby code under the covers.

We'll certainly want to try to coordinate with other projects addressing this same issue (Ruby.NET, RubyCLR, IronRuby, IronPython, Jython?), since we don't want multiple incompatible syntaxes for this stuff. You out there guys?